Comments on: What are acceptable sexual morals for a Christian Leader? http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader Peter Ould Online Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:51:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Louie Sewart http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33154 Louie Sewart Fri, 01 Aug 2008 22:01:27 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33154 Davis spent the last five days of his U.S. visit at my home in Northern Virginia which I share with my partner of twenty-four years and spoke at our church St. Thomas' Episcopal Church, Dupont Circle. During that period, I never observed the conduct described by Josh Thomas. I found Josh difficult to deal with while arranging Davis' visit. During his visit, Davis was polite, well mannered and appreciative of our hospitality. I really don't understand why Josh would want to go on this path at this time. Davis spent the last five days of his U.S. visit at my home in Northern Virginia which I share with my partner of twenty-four years and spoke at our church St. Thomas’ Episcopal Church, Dupont Circle. During that period, I never observed the conduct described by Josh Thomas. I found Josh difficult to deal with while arranging Davis’ visit. During his visit, Davis was polite, well mannered and appreciative of our hospitality. I really don’t understand why Josh would want to go on this path at this time.

]]> By: sound http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33097 sound Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:31:37 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33097 Matthew 5.28 does nothing of the sort.  It speaks about attitudes of the heart, rather than actions, being at the centre of our intentions.  If you think it's about erotica v pornography then you seem to be obsessing about sex.  You might do well to read some women's erotic fantasies Peter; that might help you to discern the difference. You seem to be pretty fixated on men, which is perhaps why you ignore the question I raised about women masturbating and in your previous post assumes that it is a male only thing.  Ryan: the kinsey report is a bit old now, and certainly concluded men masturbated more than women, but I think you might find that the question was more about orgasms. Masturbation (and indeed sex) that leads to orgasm is a very male thing.  Would love to know what the Joshua Harris camp is Peter. Does it forbid kissing in courtship?   Matthew 5.28 does nothing of the sort.  It speaks about attitudes of the heart, rather than actions, being at the centre of our intentions.  If you think it’s about erotica v pornography then you seem to be obsessing about sex.  You might do well to read some women’s erotic fantasies Peter; that might help you to discern the difference. You seem to be pretty fixated on men, which is perhaps why you ignore the question I raised about women masturbating and in your previous post assumes that it is a male only thing. 
Ryan: the kinsey report is a bit old now, and certainly concluded men masturbated more than women, but I think you might find that the question was more about orgasms. Masturbation (and indeed sex) that leads to orgasm is a very male thing. 
Would love to know what the Joshua Harris camp is Peter. Does it forbid kissing in courtship?  

]]> By: Peter Ould http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33092 Peter Ould Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:39:45 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33092 Sound, Matthew 5:28 clearly wipes aside your attempt to partition off "erotic" from "pornographic". Ryan, I'm personally in the Joshua Harris camp when it comes to sexual practice during courtship. As to the masturbation and porn issue, well I think the issue with pornography and denying communion is that if I felt that there was a deliberate attempt to be public with one's sin then I <strong>could</strong> deny communion. The canons though tell me very clearly that I can only do it once, and then I have to consult with my Bishop as to the future course of action. Sound,

Matthew 5:28 clearly wipes aside your attempt to partition off “erotic” from “pornographic”.

Ryan,

I’m personally in the Joshua Harris camp when it comes to sexual practice during courtship. As to the masturbation and porn issue, well I think the issue with pornography and denying communion is that if I felt that there was a deliberate attempt to be public with one’s sin then I could deny communion. The canons though tell me very clearly that I can only do it once, and then I have to consult with my Bishop as to the future course of action.

]]> By: ryan http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33089 ryan Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:54:21 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33089 Sound : I would (putting my former secular humanist hat on for a second) disagree that pornography is inherently degrading whereas eroticism is not. What about women who like porn (plenty of them exist)?  Lots of rape fantasies in romance novels too.  I would have to question your source on women masturbating more frequently than men, too (although I concede that vibrator sales are booming). Peter: I have read justifications of masturbation that say it's ok as long as you don't fantasise about sex , and also that it's ok for husbands to do it as they can think about their spouses (which begs the question what happens if they - involuntarily?- think of someone else). This seems to me to be an area where you have to concede that bible isn't clear so other theological sources have to be used.  When it comes to unmarried christian couples I always wondered how they decide what constitues sex - sounds silly I know, but *legally* Bill Clinton had a point when he said that oral sex isn't sex. To me it seems self-evident that *kissing* one's boyfriend/girlfriend would *increase* lustful thoughts rather than dissipate them which raises all sorts of problematic implications. I have a hard time with christians who flirt, date and kiss regarding themselves as in some way comparable to celibate priests. It sounds like you wouldn't deny communion to someone engaged in unrepentant use of pornography, Peter, which does differentiate it from what I assume is your approach to people in homosexual relationships. Sound : I would (putting my former secular humanist hat on for a second) disagree that pornography is inherently degrading whereas eroticism is not. What about women who like porn (plenty of them exist)?  Lots of rape fantasies in romance novels too.  I would have to question your source on women masturbating more frequently than men, too (although I concede that vibrator sales are booming).

Peter:

I have read justifications of masturbation that say it’s ok as long as you don’t fantasise about sex , and also that it’s ok for husbands to do it as they can think about their spouses (which begs the question what happens if they – involuntarily?- think of someone else). This seems to me to be an area where you have to concede that bible isn’t clear so other theological sources have to be used.  When it comes to unmarried christian couples I always wondered how they decide what constitues sex – sounds silly I know, but *legally* Bill Clinton had a point when he said that oral sex isn’t sex. To me it seems self-evident that *kissing* one’s boyfriend/girlfriend would *increase* lustful thoughts rather than dissipate them which raises all sorts of problematic implications. I have a hard time with christians who flirt, date and kiss regarding themselves as in some way comparable to celibate priests.

It sounds like you wouldn’t deny communion to someone engaged in unrepentant use of pornography, Peter, which does differentiate it from what I assume is your approach to people in homosexual relationships.

]]> By: sound http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33083 sound Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:09:56 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33083 You seem only to address the issue of male mastrubation Peter.  You are aware, I presume, that women do so as well? And often rather more frequently? There is of course a difference between erotic material and pornographic material, and masturbation would be bound to involve fantasy at some level.  The fantasy would be bound to be erotic, but not necessarily invovle pornography, and there is the difference.  Pornography is always de-grading and abusive.  But erotic material is not. Women and men often fantasise rather differently, but generalisations are usually unhelpful.   You seem only to address the issue of male mastrubation Peter.  You are aware, I presume, that women do so as well? And often rather more frequently?
There is of course a difference between erotic material and pornographic material, and masturbation would be bound to involve fantasy at some level.  The fantasy would be bound to be erotic, but not necessarily invovle pornography, and there is the difference.  Pornography is always de-grading and abusive.  But erotic material is not. Women and men often fantasise rather differently, but generalisations are usually unhelpful.  

]]> By: Peter Ould http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33079 Peter Ould Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:20:03 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33079 Morning Ryan, Masturbation? I can't see a particular problem with the physical act itself - I mean it all comes out eventually down the same route. The issue often though with masturbation is the entertainment of sexual fantasy that goes with it. Our thought life should also be surrendered to God (though in the case of sexual fantasy that's very hard) so to engage in something which involves unhealthy sexual fantasy is not helpful. I would view porn, sexual fantasy, homosexual activity all in the same boat. Certainly, if I knew that a senior lay member had an issue with porn I would try and support him or her deal with the underlying reasons for wanting to look at porn, but if they continued to use it habitually (or at least told me so) I would have an issue with them being in any kind of up-front position. Morning Ryan,

Masturbation? I can’t see a particular problem with the physical act itself – I mean it all comes out eventually down the same route. The issue often though with masturbation is the entertainment of sexual fantasy that goes with it. Our thought life should also be surrendered to God (though in the case of sexual fantasy that’s very hard) so to engage in something which involves unhealthy sexual fantasy is not helpful.
I would view porn, sexual fantasy, homosexual activity all in the same boat. Certainly, if I knew that a senior lay member had an issue with porn I would try and support him or her deal with the underlying reasons for wanting to look at porn, but if they continued to use it habitually (or at least told me so) I would have an issue with them being in any kind of up-front position.

]]> By: ryan http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33062 ryan Wed, 30 Jul 2008 21:37:05 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33062 I do have to ask what constitutes special circumstances, and whether something can be a means of grace without involving holiness. I hardly think that being open to a special circumstances situation applies to going to a gay bar to deliberately engage in casual sex.  Evangelical christians can be pretty flexible on sexual morality too: e.g. I know loads who don't have a problem with masturbation (do you, Peter?) and pornography is usually potrayed more as an addiction to be struggled with in the hope of overcoming it, rather than (as with homosexuality) a disfellowshipping offense. Serious question: are there really lots of liberal christians engaging in casual sex with strangers on the basis of that passage? Most liberals *I* know subscribe to a permanent faithfull and stable ideal. I do have to ask what constitutes special circumstances, and whether something can be a means of grace without involving holiness. I hardly think that being open to a special circumstances situation applies to going to a gay bar to deliberately engage in casual sex.
 Evangelical christians can be pretty flexible on sexual morality too: e.g. I know loads who don’t have a problem with masturbation (do you, Peter?) and pornography is usually potrayed more as an addiction to be struggled with in the hope of overcoming it, rather than (as with homosexuality) a disfellowshipping offense.

Serious question: are there really lots of liberal christians engaging in casual sex with strangers on the basis of that passage? Most liberals *I* know subscribe to a permanent faithfull and stable ideal.

]]> By: Peter Ould http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33055 Peter Ould Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:46:03 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33055 I have deleted a comment without a valid email address. Please include a valid email address with all comments. I have deleted a comment without a valid email address. Please include a valid email address with all comments.

]]> By: Randy http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33053 Randy Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:14:36 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33053 That is astounding.  I'd be interested to see which action they take with him.  I pray it leads to good. That is astounding.  I’d be interested to see which action they take with him.  I pray it leads to good.

]]> By: John Fisher http://www.peter-ould.net/2008/07/30/what-are-acceptable-sexual-morals-for-a-christian-leader/comment-page-1#comment-33035 John Fisher Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:39:02 +0000 http://www.peter-ould.net/?p=1029#comment-33035 It has to be a <em>loving</em> quick shag. Then it's all right (ahem). It has to be a loving quick shag.

Then it’s all right (ahem).

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