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How can you so close your eyes to the clear words of the text? Matt Kennedy’s about to find out, questioning the man who helped write the Lambeth Bible Studies:
Me: I have a question for Dr. West. Would you say that the author of the NT book of Jude was incorrect when he wrote this about Sodom and Gamorrah, “just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire…” that was from verse 7. Would you say that the writer of Jude got the context wrong?
A: No not at all, I think he was referring to the sin of inhospitality.
Me: When he uses the phrase “sexual immorality”?
A: Yes, that was the way they were being inhospitable.
Hover your cursor over this reference - Jude 7 [show]Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,(1) serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [1:7] Greek 'other flesh'
- to read it in the ESV.
I don’t get the argument here. Is Dr West saying that they were inhospitable because they insisted on the strangers residing at Lot’s doing sexually immoral things with them, when the strangers refused. But, if the strangers (angels?) had agreed to commit sexually immoral acts that would have been OK?
Answers on a postcard to:
Agents of Denial
Big Blue Tent
University of Kent
Tags: Angels, Array, Bible, Bible Studies, Blue Tent, Cursor, Denial, Desire, Dr West, Immoral Acts, Lambeth, Matt Kennedy, Phrase, Postcard, Reference, Sexual Immorality, Sodom And Gomorrah, Stuff, University Of Kent
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July 30th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
I mean, sexual immorality doesn’t even have to refer to homosexuality. I don’t really think Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for homosexuality, but for immorality in general. After all, would God have spared the cities if the men had been wanting to gang-rape Lot’s daughters instead of his guests? I certainly would hope not.
And let’s not forget that Lot offered his daughters to the crowd of rapists. Not a very good showing for the only “righteous” man in Sodom.
July 30th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Hi Jay,
I think the fact that Lot offers his daughters instead of the men obviously indicates that, to him at least, homosexual activity was worse than heterosexual, but I think your main argument, that Sodom was wiped out because of general immorality, is the key here. Dr West makes it sound as though they didn’t offer the right kind of petit fours with the cup of tea…
July 30th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Yeah, I don’t understand the “inhospitable” argument either. If the Lord destroyed cities for being inhospitable we would all be in trouble every rush hour.
July 31st, 2008 at 3:16 am
I seriously doubt that Lot was making a value judgment about homosexual rape vs. heterosexual rape. It certainly isn’t “obvious” as you say. At most, he was trying to protect his guests more than his family. I can understand that to a certain extent, but I won’t lie. I’ve always held the fact that he offered up his daughters in very low regard, and I’m often surprised that when many Christians speak of Sodom, they never mention that flash of wickedness.
July 31st, 2008 at 8:02 am
Jay,
Don’t think that anything in my comment indicates that I think Lot’s actions were correct, only that I was trying to understand it.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:38 am
Wouldn’t liberals note that the attitude to women that the Lot passage betrays is a good reason for not taking biblical gender and sexuality norms as binding today? Good point I would have thought (although a *conservative/evangelical* tried to convince me that Jesus and Paul were feminists, and therefore greater female inclusion in the church is bliblical whereas gay lib is not, which I found strange. )
July 31st, 2008 at 1:41 pm
I think the Pauline approach to gender relationships (”Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church, laying down himself for her“) is a fantastic model to hold onto. I don’t think Lot’s is intended to be read in quite the same way.
July 31st, 2008 at 11:17 pm
OK, I read an explanation of Lot’s offer of his daughters a few months ago, and it made sense to me. I’ll probably botch it up, but here goes:
In that culture, men would protect their virgin daughters at all costs, and would readily kill a man who harmed them. Therefore, Lot’s offer was an extreme illustration of how seriously he took his obligations to his guests. The men would have recognized how “over the top” Lot’s offer was, and would have been expected to stand down from their request. What I’m trying to say is that Lot had no intention whatsoever of actually pushing Sissy and Buffy out the front door - he was using hyperbole to make a point.
August 1st, 2008 at 8:01 am
If Lot’s daughter *has* been Buffy, then I wouldn’t have fancied the chances of the men of Sodom. Who needs fire and brimstone…
August 8th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
I think Dr West actually has a rather better point than his own words would seem to suggest (bear in mind the context is not a carefully considered document but a question and answer session). Inhospitality to us does suggest some sort of minor social gaffe or character defect but in the context of that part of the world (even nowadays, let alone in ancient times) the obligations of hosts towards their guests were/are regarded as sacrosanct and more important than almost anything else - and the obligation would apply to the whole host family, not just the head of the family. Thus Lot’s offer, to safeguard his guests by bringing shame on his own family instead, would have been understandable if extreme - and his selflessness (for so they would have regarded it, I think) is meant to contrast with the arrogance and selfishness of the attackers. (There are reflections of this attitude in earlier times in this country too, e.g. when so much is made in Macbeth of his turpitude in killing Duncan while D was a guest in M’s house - something we would nowadays probably regard as insignificant compared with the wickedness of killing him at all.) From the standpoint of the original audience of the Genesis story, I believe the fact that the men of Sodom tried to make Lot surrender his guests to ill-treatment really would have seemed the worst aspect of the affair; the nature of the ill-treatment, being particularly lurid and objectionable, would have been so to speak icing on the cake, and bring out the horror of the position they were putting Lot in. As for the men of S: since it is stressed that all of them “to the last man” were acting thus, it is not credible to me that they could have been “Sodomites” in the modern sense; and even if they had been, what need would there have been to destroy the city? It would have perished anyway in a generation. Nor is it really credible that they were motivated by sexual desire, since if they had been that way inclined they could presumably have satisfied one another with less fuss (nb it is often suggested that rapists in general are not really motivated by a desire for sexual gratification per se but by something more akin to bullying, the morbid need to humiliate others); moreover, in this case, since so many were involved the likely result would have been the death of the victims, and it is conceivable that the reader is supposed to understand that that was part of the intention of the attackers or even their primary purpose. In other parts of the bible when Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned the nature of their sin is not often specified, but the general context implies things like cruelty (Deut 32:32-3 [show]Deuteronomy 32:32
); more often the Lord threatens to make Israel like S&G, not for sexual misdemeanours of any sort (except the metaphorical one of whoring after foreign gods, cf. Deut 29 [show]Deuteronomy 29
, Jer 23 [show]Jeremiah 23
) but religious unfaithfulness or for social injustice (Is 1). Jude is as far as I know the first to bring out the sexual nature of the sin, but his purpose in context seems to be influenced by a desire to make a connection between human rebelliousness (and consequent punishment) and that of the divine beings of Gen 6:1-4 [show]Genesis 6:1-4
(he may be alluding to some non-biblical tradition concerning the fate of the “sons of God/the gods”). In short I really do think that the whole Sodom thing is not very helpful in the context of homosexuality as such (ie. when not part of rape or other obviously unacceptable things).
For their vine comes from the vine of Sodom
and from the fields of Gomorrah;
their grapes are grapes of poison;
their clusters are bitter;
(1) These are the words of the covenant that the LORD commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.
(2) And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet. You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the LORD your God. And when you came to this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon and Og the king of Bashan came out against us to battle, but we defeated them. We took their land and gave it for an inheritance to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of the Manassites. Therefore keep the words of this covenant and do them, that you may prosper(3) in all that you do.
"You are standing today all of you before the LORD your God: the heads of your tribes,(4) your elders, and your officers, all the men of Israel, your little ones, your wives, and the sojourner who is in your camp, from the one who chops your wood to the one who draws your water, so that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God is making with you today, that he may establish you today as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. It is not with you alone that I am making this sworn covenant, but with whoever is standing here with us today before the LORD our God, and with whoever is not here with us today.
"You know how we lived in the land of Egypt, and how we came through the midst of the nations through which you passed. And you have seen their detestable things, their idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold, which were among them. Beware lest there be among you a man or woman or clan or tribe whose heart is turning away today from the LORD our God to go and serve the gods of those nations. Beware lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit, one who, when he hears the words of this sworn covenant, blesses himself in his heart, saying, 'I shall be safe, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart.' This will lead to the sweeping away of moist and dry alike. The LORD will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven. And the LORD will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for calamity, in accordance with all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law. And the next generation, your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, will say, when they see the afflictions of that land and the sicknesses with which the LORD has made it sick-- the whole land burned out with brimstone and salt, nothing sown and nothing growing, where no plant can sprout, an overthrow like that of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger and wrath-- all the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? What caused the heat of this great anger?' Then people will say, 'It is because they abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt, and went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them. Therefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, bringing upon it all the curses written in this book, and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and fury and great wrath, and cast them into another land, as they are this day.'
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [29:1] Ch 28:69 in Hebrew
2. [29:2] Ch 29:1 in Hebrew
3. [29:9] Or 'deal wisely'
4. [29:10] Septuagint, Syriac; Hebrew 'your heads, your tribes'
"Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!" declares the LORD. Therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the shepherds who care for my people: "You have scattered my flock and have driven them away, and you have not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for your evil deeds, declares the LORD. Then I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply. I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, declares the LORD.
"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.'
"Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when they shall no longer say, 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' but 'As the LORD lives who brought up and led the offspring of the house of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he(1) had driven them.' Then they shall dwell in their own land."
Concerning the prophets:
My heart is broken within me;
all my bones shake;
I am like a drunken man,
like a man overcome by wine,
because of the LORD
and because of his holy words.
For the land is full of adulterers;
because of the curse the land mourns,
and the pastures of the wilderness are dried up.
Their course is evil,
and their might is not right.
"Both prophet and priest are ungodly;
even in my house I have found their evil,
declares the LORD.
Therefore their way shall be to them
like slippery paths in the darkness,
into which they shall be driven and fall,
for I will bring disaster upon them
in the year of their punishment,
declares the LORD.
In the prophets of Samaria
I saw an unsavory thing:
they prophesied by Baal
and led my people Israel astray.
But in the prophets of Jerusalem
I have seen a horrible thing:
they commit adultery and walk in lies;
they strengthen the hands of evildoers,
so that no one turns from his evil;
all of them have become like Sodom to me,
and its inhabitants like Gomorrah."
Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets:
"Behold, I will feed them with bitter food
and give them poisoned water to drink,
for from the prophets of Jerusalem
ungodliness has gone out into all the land."
Thus says the LORD of hosts: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD. They say continually to those who despise the word of the LORD, 'It shall be well with you'; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, 'No disaster shall come upon you.'"
For who among them has stood in the council of the LORD
to see and to hear his word,
or who has paid attention to his word and listened?
Behold, the storm of the LORD!
Wrath has gone forth,
a whirling tempest;
it will burst upon the head of the wicked.
The anger of the LORD will not turn back
until he has executed and accomplished
the intents of his heart.
In the latter days you will understand it clearly.
"I did not send the prophets,
yet they ran;
I did not speak to them,
yet they prophesied.
But if they had stood in my council,
then they would have proclaimed my words to my people,
and they would have turned them from their evil way,
and from the evil of their deeds.
"Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD. I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in my name, saying, 'I have dreamed, I have dreamed!' How long shall there be lies in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies, and who prophesy the deceit of their own heart, who think to make my people forget my name by their dreams that they tell one another, even as their fathers forgot my name for Baal? Let the prophet who has a dream tell the dream, but let him who has my word speak my word faithfully. What has straw in common with wheat? declares the LORD. Is not my word like fire, declares the LORD, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, declares the LORD, who steal my words from one another. Behold, I am against the prophets, declares the LORD, who use their tongues and declare, 'declares the LORD.' Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, declares the LORD, and who tell them and lead my people astray by their lies and their recklessness, when I did not send them or charge them. So they do not profit this people at all, declares the LORD.
"When one of this people, or a prophet or a priest asks you, 'What is the burden of the LORD?' you shall say to them, 'You are the burden,(2) and I will cast you off, declares the LORD.' And as for the prophet, priest, or one of the people who says, 'The burden of the LORD,' I will punish that man and his household. Thus shall you say, every one to his neighbor and every one to his brother, 'What has the LORD answered?' or 'What has the LORD spoken?' But 'the burden of the LORD' you shall mention no more, for the burden is every man's own word, and you pervert the words of the living God, the LORD of hosts, our God. Thus you shall say to the prophet, 'What has the LORD answered you?' or 'What has the LORD spoken?' But if you say, 'The burden of the LORD,' thus says the LORD, 'Because you have said these words, "The burden of the LORD," when I sent to you, saying, "You shall not say, 'The burden of the LORD,'" therefore, behold, I will surely lift you up and cast you away from my presence, you and the city that I gave to you and your fathers. And I will bring upon you everlasting reproach and perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.'" (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [23:8] Septuagint; Hebrew 'I'
2. [23:33] Septuagint, Vulgate; Hebrew 'What burden?'
When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in(1) man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." The Nephilim(2) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [6:3] Or 'My Spirit shall not contend with'
2. [6:4] Or 'giants'
August 8th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Hear, hear to Robert Simpson’s comment…
in friendship, Blair