• l'eveque clandestine

    In the Christian tradition, we have a word for “I in you, you in me.” It's “co-inherence.” This is one of the major themes developed in the Divine Comedy, among other places.

    One of the aspects of Hell is a descent *away* from community; Purgatory deals with the *re-integration* of community; and in Paradise, the farther one goes out into the heavens, the deeper *into* the Mystical Rose one travels. At the heart of the great Rose of all the saints is the Scintilla.

    By sickening contrast: on the TEC video run-up to General Convention, we're being told that “Ubuntu” means “community,” but Westerners just can't understand it–totally different concept, available only to sub-Saharan Africans.

    Shame on us for never, ever getting anything right. Maybe someday we will have evolved culturally to that exalted place of Ubuntu, and there will finally be a Tolstoy of the Zulus.

    Till then, do yourself a favor: leave the Episcopal Church and buy a copy of Dante instead.

    • While I’m quite happy to explore concepts of coinherence, the one thing I’m not happy to do is to mangle the words of Jesus in order to justify such a theology. I hope you see my point.

  • Mark Brown

    The Ubuntu logo was designed by a priest in San Francisco. I suspect he's chuckling about what he really intended it to mean, just as other “gay” activists are chortling about the godless paralysis and evisceration of the Gospel that they have sown in so many Episcopal dioceses. Mission accomplished.

    Mark Brown
    San Angelo, Texas
    July 8, 2009

  • l'eveque clandestine

    Oh crikey, I wish you hadn't said that. Now I can't look at the damn thing without howling with laughter. Talk about the Mystical Rose. Then again, “my” Episcopal Church is so rectal-cranially inverted I guess they're just painting what they see.

    I still stand by co-inherence, not in-coherence.

    Wow. And again I say Wow.

  • Heikki Repo

    Just to note that the quote is more probably taken from John 17:21 “just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you”. Nevertheless, that logo has a bit strange use of that quote.

    However, if we interpret that the best way, I can it used to convey us being through Christ in the communion of the Trinity. But yes, it should be rephrased.

  • winston

    Peter, you need to read a little Irenaeus!!! I wonder as well if you too readily read works like mathematical equations.

    • Winston,

      If you’re suggesting that Irenaeus’ doctrine of divinisation is equivalent to us becoming identical to the Trinitarian God (which is what the Ubuntu logo does in recasting Scripture) then I think it is you who needs to read a little more Irenaeus then just the selective quotes you seem to be referring to.

      • winston

        I didn’t know that I made a reference to any quote.

        Here is a quote though from the site that you references:

        “The design is a graphic representation of a community of people dancing together,” he explained. “It reflects our practice here at St. Gregory of dancing in a circle after Sunday communion to reflect our life desire to express joy and affection physically.” The words “I in you and you in me” are from the Gospel of John.

        So, we have a picture, a dance, and some words, and a possible reference to Scripture. I think if we want to try and understand what is being communicated, we need to see these things together rather than focussing on one element.

        It is though interesting Peter that you always have to fixate on the words, and fixate on them in a rather analytical way. In doing so, in your ever desire for black and white purity, I wonder if you loose something of the playfulness of langauge, and of the joy of ambiguity and fluidity.

        I do not mean to attack you for this, but I do so often wonder to what extent our divisions are more to do with the nature of our individual psychological frameworks rather than the nature of the Truth.

        • I didn’t know that I made a reference to any quote.

          No you didn’t. You made a claim about Irenaeus without providing a single reference. Spectacularly good theology.

          I can think of one or two quotes that you might use to support such a ludicrous idea that we can become the same as God, but they would need to be so ripped out of context as to be laughable.

          Try again please – if you have something constructive to add then please point us to a specific passage in Irenaeus rather than just spouting his name as some kind of magic mantra that instantly undermines my post.

  • l’eveque clandestine

    Ubuntu also suggests (this from a well-informed university website on African studies) that humans are the highest species, and have to be kinder than lesser animals.

    Square THAT with vegetarianism.

  • Philip Cole

    Its also quite similar to the first line of ‘I am the Walrus’, the Beatles’ great psychedelic 1968 hit: ‘I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together’

    Given that most of the leadership of ECUSA must have been sixties teenagers, I think we should consider the possibility that this was a significant source of inspiration for the logo.

    Any suggestions for who is ‘Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come?’