VOR Panel

By Peter Ould, on January 10th, 2013

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I was recently involved in a panel discussion talking about gay bishops on Voice of Russia Radio . Listen below!

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cerebusboy

Gay bishops? Sounds a bit controversial…. ;-)
jillfromharrow

Excellent debate! Very well said, Peter. I’m glad you brought up the Ugandan martyrs.

What a treat to listen to a debate on this contentious issue without people shouting across and interrupting each other all the time. I was quite impressed with the Chairman, too, who seemed to have a good grasp of the issues, and was fair to both sides.

What did not surprise me was that the LGBT representative John Blowers turned the whole issue into a personal one. This has been a very successful ploy in the whole area of human sexuality. People do not like to appear hard-hearted, and so cave in.
- Guglielmo Marinaro
  
  King Mwanga’s treatment of the Ugandan martyrs was undoubtedly and appallingly wicked, but there is no more reason for it to determine our attitude to gay bishops than for the late, great Sir Jimmy Savile’s activities to determine our attitude to straight bishops.
  - http://www.peter-ould.net Peter Ould
    
    I agree, but it is very helpful for understanding why the Church in Uganda has such a “thing” about homosexuality. It is literally the epitome of martyrdom and sacrifice for them.
    - cerebusboy
      
      Would you agree there’s something disengenous about Western evangelicals who previously supported anti-gay theological discourse in Uganda to act as if they either didn’t know or didn’t care about the likely effects of that context?
      - http://www.peter-ould.net Peter Ould
        
        Define “supported anti-gay theological discourse in Uganda”
    - Tom Jones
      
      But they are being inflamed by interference from outsiders from the USA, such as Scott Lively, author of The Pink Swastika
      
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/07/scott-lively-kill-the-gays-bill-supporter-on-trial-crimes-against-humanity_n_2425003.html
      
      and now from our own country, seemingly, this guy from the Cornerstones Café in St Neots Cambridgeshire.
      
      http://freethinker.co.uk/2013/01/02/uk-christian-coffee-shop-owner-urges-uganda-to-pass-kill-the-gays-bill/
      
      http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/09/cafe-owner-denies-speaking-at-ugandan-anti-gay-rally-attempts-to-stop-protest/
      
      http://www.passionforsouls.org.uk/?p=212
      
      http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/Calls-to-pass-the-anti-gays-Bill-dominate-New-Year-messages-/-/688334/1655670/-/11vv8ob/-/index.html
      - Fiddlesticks
        
        I don’t imagine ‘Courage’ is your favourite organisation, Tom, but I wonder what you think of this take on AIDs in general, and Africa in particular? Interesting statistics at the beginning, some discussion of African culture, and fast forward to the end for a bit of discussion of Catholic Church in Africa, Western condom solutions, and how the insidious anti-gay legislation seems to be a reaction against perceived Western Imperialism. (To give you a heads up, there’s a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ moment).http://www.couragerc.net/2012_Conference_Videos.html
    - Tom Jones
      
      The Mwamba story proves that homosexuality was not something imported from the West. But I am sure if the bishops want to go on claiming it is an unAfrican foreign import they can blame the Arabs…
      - Fiddlesticks
        
        I’m guessing, Tom, that what their claiming is that the concept of a gay identity is a Western import. I imagine the tribal leaders who raped men also had sex with women (correct me if I’m wrong in this assumption). A pretty far cry from same-sex relationships based on love rather than sex.
    - Tom Jones
      
      Yes, I agree Peter, it is a ‘thing” that does need some explanation to those of us who do not know the history of Christian mission in Uganda. At the 2002 meeting of the American Academy of Religion in Toronto Kenneth Hamilton, himself a Catholic Missionary and Black, presented this paper to the “Gay Men’s Issues Group” entitled “The Flames of Namugongo: Postcoloniality Meets Queer on African Soil?”
      
      http://www.clgs.org/flames-namugongo-postcoloniality-meets-queer-african-soil
      
      He says about what drew him to the project:
      
      “What drew me to this story? Well, first of all, this story, though canonized, is also an erased story, an untold story, not really a full narrative at all….more like a fragment. It is a story denied, a “subtext” that can be a whispered story. Yet, whispered or not, it spoke loudly to me! I identify myself as an Afri-guided, postcolonial, queer, ordained, Catholic missioner. I am a member of a missionary society that now counts Africans and other men and women of color as its significant majority. And I belong to a team of two other Afrimerican confreres who are wishing to “recover” from the oppressions of Afri-phobia, binary opposition, hetero-patriarchy, AIDS-phobia and, most of all, Catholic erotophobia. That’s a lot of recovery! But I had to mention them all because at this interstice lies the heart of our own “dark” oppression.
      
      The story of the Uganda martyrs is a story about “othering.” Both literally and figuratively, it is about the “dark side” of missionary encounter: a story about “sodomy” among black African men. Once canonized, the story then demolishes old identities, constructs new ones, and then obscures the double entendres of desire with spiritual overtalk…….”
      
      Definitely a “must read”, I’d say, for those of us concerned about what is going on in Uganda at the moment.
      - Tom Jones
        
        Kenneth Hamilton has written a much fuller study of the Ugandan Martyrs. a book-length publication of some 330 pages which takes space to examine and explain things more fully. You can download it here:
        
        http://www.academia.edu/1404802/The_flames_of_Namugongo_Postcolonial_queer_and_thea_ological_reflections_on_the_narrative_of_the_1886_Ugandan_martyrdom
        
        The interesting thing that Hamilton draws attention to is that Pope Paul in his homily at the canonisation of St Charles Lwanga and his Companions on 18 October 1964 made no mention at all of homosexuality. They were killed because they would not reject their Christian faith as the Kabaka demanded.
        
        See also:
        
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Martyrs
- cerebusboy
  
  Or perhaps it’s because personal testimony is a good way to negate pernicious stereotypes. If only there wasn’t still people, in the Year of Our Lord 2013,
  comparing gay people to shit-eating paedophiles eh?
  - http://www.peter-ould.net Peter Ould
    
    Give it a rest. We know what you think of Jill.
    - cerebusboy
      
      Come now Peter, I’m on record as saying that Jill may well be a wonderful human being in many aspects of her life. Your blog your rules – so I’ll happily drop the matter, but for the record I strongly disagree that objecting to homophobic stereotypes is an ad hom-style offence against serious discourse. I’d hazard a guess that you would not be ok with ”black lifestyle” or ‘Jew lifestyle’ dehumanising generalisations on this blog. I’ll admit I’m occasionally a bit stereotypical when referring to evangelicals – but of course ‘middle-class’ is hardly an innacurate characterisation of your average evangelical, and in any case middle-class is hardly a bad thing (I’d love to be middle-class! assuming they do Boden in XXL ;)) . Compare and contrast with Jill’s anti-gay generalisations that portray them as shit-eating paedophiles. That said, I’ll drop the matter, sorry for any hassle inadvertently caused.
      - jillfromharrow
        
        Ryan dear – did you really say that about me?? Mwah!
        
        cerebusboy
        
        Was that a kiss Jill? I’d have thought you’d be worried about catching AIDS, some shit-eating related virus or all the other diseases us Gay Lobby fans partake of and spread….
        
        http://www.peter-ould.net Peter Ould
        
        Stop it. Seriously.
        
        cerebusboy
        
        Sorry.
        
        http://www.peter-ould.net Peter Ould
        
        This stops now. We know what you think of Jill’s opinions and that is very well established. By all means, if she makes a specific claim in the future then address that specific claim, but you will NOT keep on dragging up points of disagreement. It doesn’t help the discussion one bit.
Tom Jones

I thought it was well conducted too, though I’d have said Savi and you were the most engaged of the debaters. I see Alison Ruoff thinks her position is unassailable but it really isn’t if you study the Bible with any degree of attention to scholarship. Still using the word ‘liberal” to mean mistaken, cherry picking or just plain dishonest, I see….ummm.

PS Is the Brendan Cole who chaired it the same person as the dancer in Strictly? I thought I detected as slight Kiwi twang….
- http://www.peter-ould.net Peter Ould
  
  Thanks Tom – it was a well conducted debate and Brendan did a good job of moving the conversation around and also forwards.
  
  Not the same Brendan Cole as the dancer!