More on Substitution

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I simply don’t understand those Christian leaders who can’t accept that one of the things going on at the cross is Substitutionary Atonement. Without wanting to be unnecessarily rude, one must be blind to not see that the death of Jesus is a substitution for ourselves. In particular, it seems to me that people like Jeffrey John must have ripped bits out of their Bible in order to deny substitution.

I mean, how does he handle stuff like Isaiah 53:12 [show]Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,(1) and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,(2) because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. Footnotes 1. [53:12] Or 'with the great' 2. [53:12] Or 'with the numerous'
? If Jesus “bore the sin of many” (put your cursor over the Bible reference to see the full text) then what does that mean? If Jesus simply bore my sin and then handed it back to me, what was the point of it? If he didn’t take my sin onto himself and then deal with it, I’m still stuck with my sin. What should I do about my sin Jeffery? Try harder?

What about Romans 3:23-25 [show]Romans 3:23-25 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (ESV)
? When Jesus was offered as “a propitiation” was St Paul lying Jeffrey? Jeffrey’s not stupid - he learnt Greek at Theological College the same as I did. Blimey - he’s got a Doctorate, so I’m sure he knows the Greek word here is hilasterion. In the LXX the hilasterion is the Mercy Seat where sacrifice is made for sin (Exodus 25 [show]Exodus 25 The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the people of Israel, that they take for me a contribution. From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me. And this is the contribution that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze, blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen, goats' hair, tanned rams' skins, goatskins,(1) acacia wood, oil for the lamps, spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense, onyx stones, and stones for setting, for the ephod and for the breastpiece. And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst. Exactly as I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it. "They shall make an ark of acacia wood. Two cubits(2) and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. You shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and outside shall you overlay it, and you shall make on it a molding of gold around it. You shall cast four rings of gold for it and put them on its four feet, two rings on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it. You shall make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. And you shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark to carry the ark by them. The poles shall remain in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it. And you shall put into the ark the testimony that I shall give you. "You shall make a mercy seat(3) of pure gold. Two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. Of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you. There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel. "You shall make a table of acacia wood. Two cubits shall be its length, a cubit its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. You shall overlay it with pure gold and make a molding of gold around it. And you shall make a rim around it a handbreadth(4) wide, and a molding of gold around the rim. And you shall make for it four rings of gold, and fasten the rings to the four corners at its four legs. Close to the frame the rings shall lie, as holders for the poles to carry the table. You shall make the poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold, and the table shall be carried with these. And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour drink offerings; you shall make them of pure gold. And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me regularly. "You shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The lampstand shall be made of hammered work: its base, its stem, its cups, its calyxes, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it. And there shall be six branches going out of its sides, three branches of the lampstand out of one side of it and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side of it; three cups made like almond blossoms, each with calyx and flower, on one branch, and three cups made like almond blossoms, each with calyx and flower, on the other branch--so for the six branches going out of the lampstand. And on the lampstand itself there shall be four cups made like almond blossoms, with their calyxes and flowers, and a calyx of one piece with it under each pair of the six branches going out from the lampstand. Their calyxes and their branches shall be of one piece with it, the whole of it a single piece of hammered work of pure gold. You shall make seven lamps for it. And the lamps shall be set up so as to give light on the space in front of it. Its tongs and their trays shall be of pure gold. It shall be made, with all these utensils, out of a talent(5) of pure gold. And see that you make them after the pattern for them, which is being shown you on the mountain. (ESV) Footnotes 1. [25:5] Uncertain; possibly 'dolphin skins', or 'dugong skins'; compare 26:14 2. [25:10] A 'cubit' was about 18 inches or 45 centimeters 3. [25:17] Or 'cover' 4. [25:25] A 'handbreadth' was about 3 inches or 7.5 centimeters 5. [25:39] A 'talent' was about 75 pounds or 34 kilograms
just for starters), it’s the altar (the place where sacrifice for sin happens Jeffrey) in Amos 9:1 [show]Amos 9:1 I saw the Lord standing beside(1) the altar, and he said: "Strike the capitals until the thresholds shake, and shatter them on the heads of all the people;(2) and those who are left of them I will kill with the sword; not one of them shall flee away; not one of them shall escape. Footnotes 1. [9:1] Or 'on' 2. [9:1] Hebrew 'all of them'
and Ezekiel 43:17 [show]Ezekiel 43:17 The ledge also shall be square, fourteen cubits long by fourteen broad, with a rim around it half a cubit broad, and its base one cubit all around. The steps of the altar shall face east." (ESV)
. If therefore Jesus was NOT the place where a sacrifice for sin took place (i.e. Jesus was the sacrifice AND the place of sacrifice) then why did Paul say he was?

More? 2 Cor 5:21 [show]2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (ESV)
says of Jesus that the Father “made him to be sin”. So if Jesus became as one who had sinned, where was that sin coming from? The animals? The angels? If Jesus wasn’t being made one carrying our sin, then how did the crucifixion make us mere humans “become the righteousness of God”? I don’t get it if Jesus didn’t take my sin.

Galatians 3:13 [show]Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"-- (ESV)
Jeffrey? If Christ did become a curse for us, then does that mean that I am no longer cursed? If so how did that curse vanish from me? If Christ didn’t take my sins on the cross then how did I get rid of them myself, because I must have done in order to no longer be a curse. It’s very confusing Jeffrey - you seem to be suggesting that I managed to get rid of the curse of sin on my life through my own efforts.

And don’t even start me on the Letter to the Hebrews Jeffrey. What about Hebrews 9:11-14 [show]Hebrews 9:11-14 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,(1) then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify(2) for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our(3) conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (ESV) Footnotes 1. [9:11] Some manuscripts 'good things to come' 2. [9:13] Or 'For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctifies' 3. [9:14] Some manuscripts 'your'
? If Jesus was sinless, why did he need his own blood to enter the most holy place? Does that mean he shed his blood as an eternal redemption for himself or for us? Did Jesus’ blood redeem me Jeffrey? If so, how?? Why did he need to die if he wasn’t carrying my sin? I just read Hebrews 10:10 [show]Hebrews 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (ESV)
and it seems to suggest that I have been sanctified through the offering of Jesus. If he didn’t have to carry my sin on the cross, then how did he sanctify me?

I think Jeffrey’s problem, and frankly the problem of everybody who doesn’t like substitutionary atonement, is that they need to somehow disarm the work of Christ on the cross in order to disarm the power of sin. If your sin is going to kill you eternally unless it’s dealt with, then you need a saviour to deal with it. If however your sin is something that is dealt with on the side, if God didn’t have to do something himself about it, then sin becomes a secondary issue, something that gets handled without my really being involved, instead of me being totally involved, because in reality everything I’ve ever done wrong is causing Jesus pain at Calvary so that I don’t have to pay the price for it.

Here we are then in Tuesday of Holy Week. The Eucharistic Gospel today is John 12:20-36 [show]John 12:20-36 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks. So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus." Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again." The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him." Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?" So Jesus said to them, "The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. (ESV)
, which includes Jesus saying “when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself”, a clear reference to the Bronze Serpent in Numbers 21:9 [show]Numbers 21:9 So Moses made a bronze(1) serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. (ESV) Footnotes 1. [21:9] Or 'copper'
. Christ was raised up for us so that we, who should rightly die, need only recognise what he was doing on the cross to instead live. And why do we live when we recognise Jesus? Because it is on the cross that Christ is dealing with my sin. And how, pray someone tell me, is he dealing with my sin if he doesn’t take it from me somehow? Anybody? Anybody? Jeffrey?

I guess John 12:32 [show]John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (ESV)
is another verse Dr John needs to rip out of his Bible together with all the ones above and so many more. Shame.